Author Topic: Some Clarification from Shapiro... (Read 22831 times)

Nitro1118 · « **Reply #50 on:** February 02, 2006, 11:35:29 PM »

No, I am being realistic. There is a reason parks aren't open in the winter, and it isn't because rides can't run.

I think you are confusing what makes a park successful in winter to what makes a resort successful in the winter. Sure, winter lights and a few flat rides (no coasters are gonna operate in the cold winters NJ gets) might attract a F-E-W people to the park, but just locals. No one is gonna travel from different states and stay at an on site hotel just for a few nice Christmas lights and 1/4 of a park open. There are much better resorts that have the indoor water parks and have true winter attractions like skiing. Hershey is successful in winter only because of the Christmas crap, but that is only a one nigh thing, not something people would travel out of state to and stay at the on site hotel.

I think you are not realizing what could be and what will never happen. Again, if they are gonna be a year round resort, they would have to have the Winter Lights, park open, and much more to get people travelling to the on site hotel. And what you imagine with a monster hotel across the lake with paddle boats travelling back and forth between the hotel and park like at IOA is imagination, like you said. We still have no idea how one hotel will do in season, let alone making a huge hotel that would be open all season.

rjholla2003 · « **Reply #51 on:** February 03, 2006, 01:03:43 AM »

Nitro, you really are underestimating how much people will travel for a park in the dead of winter. Hershey probably has worse winters than we do, but their Christmas is very popular AFAIK. I was going to go to HP over winter break, with my girlfriend and some of her family because they wanted to go to the "half park". People like going to good parks in the cold, even if the big rides are closed. As long as the small ones are still going and it's adequately priced (HP is pay per ride), people will go.

depotrat · « **Reply #52 on:** February 03, 2006, 05:15:33 AM »

Nitro:

You are thinking too small. Hotels that are only open part of the year are in trouble from the get go. The cost of maintaining the physical plant without revenue makes the business plan very difficult. SF already knows this and that is why the lodge at Great Escape is opening the new indoor water park this month. I have no doubt that the new mgt. has delayed things here to look into doing the same thing.

The best example of the same problem are the ski resorts which are now putting in summer activities to allow year round operation. I am not aware of any indoor water park that has failed. If SFGADV opens one the nearest competition would be in the Poconos (at least until the other announced NJ park gets going if ever) and indoor water parks in the midwest have flourished with competition in the same city.

WadeJ · « **Reply #53 on:** February 03, 2006, 09:55:55 AM »

The hotel across the lake isn't a figment (yes, bad disney joke) of our imaginiation. It was in the works before the current hotel was even announced. True, they were waiting to see how the first onsite hotel did but we didn't just dream this up. And saying people in NJ aren't interested in a QUICK retreat from the brutal cold is narrow minded IMO.

Actually, it's exactly what people in the northeast are looking for. And its exactly why these indoor tropical oasis waterparks are doing so well.

What depotrat said is 100% true. A hotel cannot survive there by only being open April -October. There are so many reasons why this wouldn't work that I won't even bother listing them.

It does make you wonder though if the hotel being put on hold by Shapiro has anything to do with a indoor water park NOT being included. That concerned me from the first moment this project was annouced.

chilled182 · « **Reply #54 on:** February 03, 2006, 02:53:50 PM »

Dude.. there is no way that dollywood is a big franchise or a resort or anything of the sort. ITs simply, the only thing to do around there in the winter time! Ive done the dollywood deal.. and they have rides open. IT wasnt all that bad. The shows still ran and they had an awesome firework/light display for the christmas season and beyond. It was a really good time, and there is many possibilities for a winter opening.

GADVwow · « **Reply #55 on:** February 03, 2006, 07:23:43 PM »

Excuse me...Dollywood is right beside The Great Smokey Mountains National Park, Gatlinburg and about 645 tourist attractions at last count. Just cause coaster people don't find any other coasters around (well, not since the NASCAR thingy closed) doesn't mean an area isn't a huge tourist draw.

And there is a TREMENDOUS difference in December weather between extreme southern Tennessee and mid-state New Jersey. To put it mildly...

Deadman · « **Reply #56 on:** February 03, 2006, 07:56:53 PM »

Plus, the whole hotel not open all year thing reminds me of The Shining :shock:

KingdaKaRuler05 · « **Reply #57 on:** February 03, 2006, 09:25:50 PM »

Quote

Nitro, you really are underestimating how much people will travel for a park in the dead of winter. Hershey probably has worse winters than we do, but their Christmas is very popular AFAIK. I was going to go to HP over winter break, with my girlfriend and some of her family because they wanted to go to the "half park". People like going to good parks in the cold, even if the big rides are closed. As long as the small ones are still going and it's adequately priced (HP is pay per ride), people will go.

It's changing....

http://www.hersheypa.com/attractions/hersheypark/hours/christmas.html

10 bucks isn't bad for a nice selection of flats, entertainment, and holiday specials...

-KKR05

Pashacar · « **Reply #58 on:** February 04, 2006, 11:07:29 AM »

Quote from: "WadeJ"

What depotrat said is 100% true. A hotel cannot survive there by only being open April -October. There are so many reasons why this wouldn't work that I won't even bother listing them.

Uh huh . . . so that Hotel Breakers over in Ohio is a failure?

And the Nascar Speedpark in TN closed???

chilled182 · « **Reply #59 on:** February 04, 2006, 11:16:50 AM »

Quote from: "GADVwow"

Excuse me...Dollywood is right beside The Great Smokey Mountains National Park, Gatlinburg and about 645 tourist attractions at last count. Just cause coaster people don't find any other coasters around (well, not since the NASCAR thingy closed) doesn't mean an area isn't a huge tourist draw.

And there is a TREMENDOUS difference in December weather between extreme southern Tennessee and mid-state New Jersey. To put it mildly...

thats not my point! I have relatives that live down the street ive been there more times than i dont know what ad ill be there presidents day weekend again this year. MY point is that we too CAN have something like that just as long as they do it right! Open the rides, have fun shows, there are tons of people who would come and enjoy that regardless of whats around the park.

WadeJ · « **Reply #60 on:** February 04, 2006, 11:43:56 AM »

Quote from: Pashacar

Uh huh . . . so that Hotel Breakers over in Ohio is a failure?
quote]

Not getting it... They are completely different economic situations. Breakers has been there for 100 years. It also doesn't have ANY problems with occupancy during the months they are open. You can't open a brand new hotel and expect to reach those same levels overnight.

A hotel in NJ that can't fill rooms for a few months of the year vs. a hotel is Ohio that is closed a few months are completely different situations that cannot be compared. Our economy is so different here.

I'm not saying it can't be done, I just worry about HOW it might be done which could very easily lead to failure.

GADVwow · « **Reply #61 on:** February 04, 2006, 08:46:31 PM »

And chilled182, when you go President's Day Weekend, you will find Dollywood to be ....

CLOSED...

for the winter. Which it does from about Christmas until late March every year.

It should also be noted that many, if not most people who go to Dollywood go there for the shows and entertainment and the shopping. In large part, the rides are there to keep the grandkids busy and quiet.

Nitro1118 · « **Reply #62 on:** February 06, 2006, 04:31:33 PM »

Quote from: "rjholla2003"

Nitro, you really are underestimating how much people will travel for a park in the dead of winter. Hershey probably has worse winters than we do, but their Christmas is very popular AFAIK. I was going to go to HP over winter break, with my girlfriend and some of her family because they wanted to go to the "half park". People like going to good parks in the cold, even if the big rides are closed. As long as the small ones are still going and it's adequately priced (HP is pay per ride), people will go.

Hershey is a different situation and park than GADV. Hershey attracts families, and if you mix that traiditonal family park, the fact it is chocolate capital of the world, and something to do on Christmas, you got a winner. BUT, I highly doubt they'd see much of anything throughout the months of January and February like they would during X-Mas time. That is why i said it'd be fine to keep open the hotel during X_Mas if they could do something like Winter Lights, but it would be downright stupid to keep it open all winter. GADV doesn't have chocolate factory and tradition that Hershey has. And for that matter, we also don't have the great flat rides among other things that Hershey has outside of the coasters which don't run in the winter. If parks honestly thought it would be worth it to stay half open in the winter, many more parks in colder climates would. NLASTLY, I think you are forgetting we are talking hotel here. Did your family stay at any of the higher quality hotels down there? How many people out of state do you think was there? You got to realize even though the park is successful, is there enough people coming from out of state to make the hotel successful.

depotrat:

Do you work for SF? Do you work with GADV's mangangement? Were you there when Shapiro has toured SF parks? Did you plan GADV's new hotel? If not, I wouldn't say you have no doubt they have delayed the hotel to add a indoor waterpark.

That isn't a great example you gave. Poconos have many things to do in the summer to compliment the winter. Central NJ has nothing to do in the middle of winter. N-O-T-H-I-N-G. It is much easier to add things to do in the summer than the winter.

EVERYONE:

As I said before, GADV's hotel would never be successful in the winter unless there was much more to do in the winter. Leaving the park half open would definately NOT be enough, neither would anything like Winter Lights as that is a X-Mas only thing. And remember, those little things wouldn't attract people out of state or tourists, only people within 2 hours, which wouldn't stay at the hotel. Also, hotels can most definately stay successful without being open in the winter. AS Pashacar said, the park most comparable to GADV is CP, and their hotels aren't open in the winter, except the Raddison, which isn't even CP's hotel (I believe CP just owns the waterpark, Castaway Bay).

coastermom · « **Reply #63 on:** February 06, 2006, 04:50:48 PM »

Nitro1118 just to let you know I stayed at castaway bay and the hotel and water park are both owned by CF.

SFGADV probally will never go to a year round operation even with a hotel . Christmas in Hershey is nice but no coasters are open and the kids enjoyed it when they were a little younger now at 10 and 13 they don't want to go back . Our little one might enjoy it but you need other things to do there and in that area there are if i go to Cp all i do is CP and maybe GL , if i go to SFGADV all I do is that if I go to Hershey I do alot of other things in that area . Different demographics there and families are a big part of it

Nitro1118 · « **Reply #64 on:** February 06, 2006, 05:09:10 PM »

How did you like Castaway Bay? I passed the Raddison when I visited CP in 2003, and looked pretty nice.

Thank you for proving my point. The only time in winter the hotel would even have a chance is on X-Mas, and even then 99% of the people visiting would be from NJ/eastern PA.

coastermom · « **Reply #65 on:** February 06, 2006, 08:52:00 PM »

Nitro1118
I did like castaway bay only for the fact that it had the water park. the rooms are being upgraded this year so they were a little old looking last year . the updated part of the hotel was very nice but you can see the differance of where the new and the old meet. I did enjoy the water park the three times we went . It happened that we went on the day we got there and twoother days once because of rain and once just because the kids wanted to go back one last time. I don't know if next time we go to CP we will stay at this hotel but we will stay at any CF run hotel just for the early entery to the park. We have gone to CP for the past two years and have really enjoyed it .

I am hopeful that SFGADV will really get their act together and empliment the changes that are their plans. We love the kiddie rides in Cp and the family atomsphere with the flat rides and parent swap it is truley an enjoyable day. I am counting on SF not doing much but I am hopeful that all we are hearing will happen. The Hotel at SFGADV is a good idea but not at the expensive of other things the park could be doing now to improve the running of the park . I also don't think the hotel can do much business year round with out a indoor water park and maybe some incentive to stay there like other things to visit in the area .

depotrat · « **Reply #66 on:** February 06, 2006, 09:38:21 PM »

depotrat:

Do you work for SF? Do you work with GADV's mangangement? Were you there when Shapiro has toured SF parks? Did you plan GADV's new hotel? If not, I wouldn't say you have no doubt they have delayed the hotel to add a indoor waterpark.

Nitro:

I didn't say they delayed the hotel to add a waterpark, I said I had no doubt that they delayed the hotel to check out a waterpark. Very different. I do not have to work for SF to have an opinion. When I said I have no doubt that doen't mean it is a fact, it means that my view of the situation leads me to believe that.

I do understand the business models of hotels and although it can be done, it is much more difficult to be profitable when only open part of the year. Many costs are fixed and a year round revenue stream is advantageos.

If SF put in an indoor waterpark their would no longer be NOTHING to do there. Do you think Lake George in February is a happening spot. How about Madison Wisconsin? These places are going to make it with the indoor parks. As I said, haven't heard of one failing yet. The business model seems to work.

rjholla2003 · « **Reply #67 on:** February 06, 2006, 11:17:43 PM »

If I was to build the on-site hotel, I would definately make sure to have a world class indoor waterpark to draw in the families during the winter months and keep the money flowing. On top of that, for extra insurance, I would add a conference center. Seeing as there are no hotels in the area, I would be willing to bet that conference centers are also scarce. They can rent it out to corporations, schools for proms/graduation, trade shows, and many other things. I personally hope that the hotel is on hold for a better location, with at least one of the two improvements I would make on it added.

Nitro1118 · « **Reply #68 on:** February 07, 2006, 04:00:15 PM »

Quote from: "depotrat"

I didn't say they delayed the hotel to add a waterpark, I said I had no doubt that they delayed the hotel to check out a waterpark. Very different. I do not have to work for SF to have an opinion. When I said I have no doubt that doen't mean it is a fact, it means that my view of the situation leads me to believe that.

I do understand the business models of hotels and although it can be done, it is much more difficult to be profitable when only open part of the year. Many costs are fixed and a year round revenue stream is advantageos.

If SF put in an indoor waterpark their would no longer be NOTHING to do there. Do you think Lake George in February is a happening spot. How about Madison Wisconsin? These places are going to make it with the indoor parks. As I said, haven't heard of one failing yet. The business model seems to work.

1) When you say you have no doubt they delayed it because they are looking to add an indoor waterpark is pretty mcuh you stating it fact, and you would bet almsot anything on it.

2) Again, many hotels are mighty successful when only open part of the year, especially ones that are connected to tourist traps like an amusement park.

3) Heh, again, just because you haven't heard of one failing doesn't mean sh*t. I am sure you have no facts to back up that none fail, or any percentage. People won't come from different states just for an indoor waterpark. If you packaged that with Winter Lights, half the park open, and something else, then maybe, but for the whole winter, I do not think they should keep the hotel open. I have never been to Lake George, but if there are mountains very close by or something else that could provide for winter activities, then that could easily work. With central NJ, there is nothing like that. I think a indoor waterpark would be good for summer/fall/spring, but for winter, a fairly small waterpark isn't enough to attract people away from the many true winter destinations in the NJ/PA/NY area.

RJ:

I really like the idea of a conferance center. They are one of the biggest reasons why the big hotels in Vegas survive. Also as you said, they are scarce in central NJ.

As for my ideas for GADV hotel:

Build a 4-5 star hotel across the lake. That has been a dream of mine FOREVER now. I have had this dream since 2002 when the land clearing started happenning. Of course, this would stunt future park additions as far as coasters and new themed areas, but I feel it is necassary. It would have a very similar appearence to Hard Rock Hotel at Unuversal Orlando. Very laid back, but everything is high quality and top notch, and also looks very classy. Of course, it wouldn't have that theme, but you get the point. This kind of hotel would attract just because of the hotel part, and people would go there even though they may not like amusement parks.

GADVwow · « **Reply #69 on:** February 07, 2006, 06:38:33 PM »

If that land across the lake has development potential, look for Six Flags to sell it to raise money to pay off creditors, sad to say. . .

depotrat · « **Reply #70 on:** February 08, 2006, 04:06:43 AM »

Nitro:

Indoor waterparks are fairly new. The first popped up in the midwest and have been wildly successful. The winter is long and cold and folks are looking for recreation. I am not aware of any failing yet - are you? Now the phenonmenon is coming to the east in the Poconos and Lake George and the early booking on these, both just open, has been strong.

The indoor park is the attraction, that is why the folks come to the hotel. What data do you have that folks won't come from different states for an indoor waterpark? The model of the Poconos and Lake George is not built on local use only because some of these parks only allow use of the waterpark for hotel guests. Six Flags is already in the waterpark business so the synergy is there. Seems like a natural to me.

rjholla2003 · « **Reply #71 on:** February 08, 2006, 05:21:07 AM »

Quote from: "GADVwow"

If that land across the lake has development potential, look for Six Flags to sell it to raise money to pay off creditors, sad to say. . .

I wouldn't mark it as sold just yet. I have a feeling that Shapiro may realize that land is potential, and that land locking parks is a bad idea. I'd see the land that SFI owns that isn't attached to parks being sold, them maybe some outlying areas being sold after that if there's a need. I don't see them land locking their parks though.

GADVwow · « **Reply #72 on:** February 08, 2006, 07:36:00 AM »

That would make sense, but Six Flags is desperate for money to pay off creditors right now, and investors have been told that large sales of real estate (including, perhaps entire parks) can be expected. I agree I wouldn't mark that land across the lake sold yet, but I wouldn't assume it's safe from sale, either.

WadeJ · « **Reply #73 on:** February 08, 2006, 08:59:38 AM »

For better or worse, Six Flags owns a ton of land in NJ that isn't associated with the park at all or even near it for that matter. HOPEFULLY this is what we see them unload.

Six Flags REALLY doesn't need to be owning land with failing strip malls, etc. right now.

I'm also not sure the land around Gadv is all that valuable right now. Its not in a location like SFA where there is crazy development going on.

GADVwow, I really really hope you are wrong but I know anything is possible at this point with SFI.

Nitro1118 · « **Reply #74 on:** February 08, 2006, 03:40:45 PM »

Quote from: "depotrat"

Nitro:

Indoor waterparks are fairly new. The first popped up in the midwest and have been wildly successful. The winter is long and cold and folks are looking for recreation. I am not aware of any failing yet - are you? Now the phenonmenon is coming to the east in the Poconos and Lake George and the early booking on these, both just open, has been strong.

The indoor park is the attraction, that is why the folks come to the hotel. What data do you have that folks won't come from different states for an indoor waterpark? The model of the Poconos and Lake George is not built on local use only because some of these parks only allow use of the waterpark for hotel guests. Six Flags is already in the waterpark business so the synergy is there. Seems like a natural to me.

Again, places like the Pocono's and many places in the midwest thrive in the winter....the indoor waterparks give it the edge in the winter to the other hotels. GADV is not an attraction in the winter, and more people would go to true winter attractions like the Pocono's (which as you said, now have a ton of indoor waterparks). Totally different situations.

People don't go to any hotel that is under 5 stars just to go there. They go there so they have a place to sleep at and spend some time at while they are at the true destination (theme park, skiing, visiting city, etc...). I am also not a fan of GADV getting a indoor waterpark as HH, a great waterpark, would be less than 1,000ft from the proposed site of the new hotel. And there is no way they have near enough space to put a HUGE indoor waterpark to even compare to HH. So, most people would pay the 50 dollars less to stay outside the park, spend the 30-40 bucks to go to a far superior waterpark which is also at GADV, and you get the point. CP understood this, and added Castaway Bay to Raddison, which 1/2-1 mile from the causeway. And again, THAT is a different situation, as they are an already ESTABLISHED resort with other hotels in the area with indoor waterparks.

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Author Topic: Some Clarification from Shapiro... (Read 22831 times)